Introduction
This blog post is translated from our French podcast called Conversations. It documents the work of researchers and experts involved in preserving and promoting the recordings of the first Congress of Arabic Music held in Cairo in 1932.
We spend some time today with a distinguished ethnomusicologist, Dr. Scheherazade Hassan. In our interview, she highlights the Iraqi maqam tradition, which forms a substantial part of the Congress recordings. She also discusses her fieldwork, collecting sounds for Radio Baghdad in the 1970s.
Schehrazade invites us to her home on a Sunday morning (7 April 2024), along with Professors Martin Stokes and Anne Rasmussen. Documents and photos from her personal archives are spread out on the living room table. She begins our discussion by explaining how she discovered the existence of the Cairo Congress recordings when she arrived in Paris.
Interview
SH: When I arrived in France in the early 1970s to do my PhD, there was a lady in the team I worked with who worked at the Guimet Museum. She was in charge of the recordings department. She said to me: did you know that at the Guimet Museum, we have all the recordings made in Cairo in 1932? Because the director of the Guimet Museum was among the French guests, once the Congress was over, he was given all the recordings. That’s how I found out about these recordings, which later allowed us to make a copy for the Musée de l’Homme.
That’s how it started. Then, little by little, I read various publications and finally, we lived as a family in Cairo for a year in 1987. At that point, I already had the idea of organising a conference on the fiftieth anniversary of the Cairo Congress. So, I got in touch with people who were interested in music, and there was one person still alive who had participated in it. His name was Rajeb Meftah.
It’s strange, but at that time in Egypt, we didn’t know much about the recordings (from the Congress). From what I understand, the number of copies was limited, and they were mainly given as gifts to the heads of the commissions, but not to the artists. Then, after twenty years, they began to be broadcast tentatively on Egyptian and Iraqi radio. So the general public was not very familiar with them.
It was at this point that I learned from a well-informed Egyptian musician about the existence of an important documentary collection on the Cairo Congress, located at the very Institute of Oriental Music where the Congress had taken place. This included all the files and written documents (relating to the Congress) that no one knew about.
At the time, I wrote a letter to the Minister of Education. I don’t remember his name, Husni, probably. I said to him: “Minister, with the support of the CNRS, a research department in Paris, I would like to organise a conference. Do you think it would be possible to have access to these documents to analyse them and understand how this Congress actually unfolded?“
But I never received a reply, and ultimately, I don’t know if we really have much information available today… Of course, we have the (official Congress) publication in French, as well as a more condensed version in Arabic. So, I was in the preparation stage, and the idea was to invite researchers from the countries that participated in 1932 because, in fact, these countries were represented, but through colonial authorities. For example, the Maghreb was represented by France.
So, in 1989, when the conference took place and Egyptians, Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians were invited, the idea was to express their views on their countries’ participation, based on documents from 1932, and to analyse what had happened since then. That is why we invited a large number of people to participate in our conference in Cairo.[1]
Now, concerning Iraq, I have not yet found any clear indication of how this country was invited (to the Cairo Congress). (…) And then, of course, there is Egypt, for which there was great admiration because it was a central country in the Arab world, geographically located between the Maghreb and the Mashreq.
There were 78 rpm records recorded there dating from the 1920s that were already well known in Iraq. At the same time, there was a local tradition known as Iraqi Maqam, which was quite popular in the capital and in various localities around Baghdad. It was also appreciated by members of the government, particularly the Prime Minister at the time (Nuri Saïd). As a result, Iraq was represented (at the Cairo Congress) by Iraqi Maqam.
Now, how were the (Iraqi) artists chosen? Because there were different schools of singing. There was a great traditional singer who had lost his voice a little, meaning he sang higher (in what is called zir). His admirers didn’t care and continued to listen to him anyway. Another traditional Maqam performer also had a very beautiful voice, but did not necessarily master all the repertoires…
And then there was a third, who was ultimately chosen [to represent Iraq], Mohamed al-Qubanji. He had a magnificent voice, but in addition to that, he had something unique: he was a master of poetry. Not only did he know great poems by heart, in classical Arabic and vernacular, but he was also capable of writing poetic texts.
So, he was among the first to give importance to the Arabic language by singing the Maqam. Before that, it was said that Iraqi maqam was mainly celebrated for its melodic side, for its singing as well, but then (with al-Qubanji) the words took on even greater importance, thanks to his particular mastery of the Arabic language.
What’s more, he came from a slightly more modern school that not everyone appreciated; he was inventive and added new elements. When we analyse Iraqi maqam structures, we know that performers can sometimes use their sensitivity to innovate, but he tended to do so on a regular basis.
What’s more, as he was attracted to modernity – and did not need to make a living from his singing – he allowed himself this freedom. Let’s just say he was a great businessman, while other performers had to earn their living from Maqam and had a more traditional profile. They dressed in the old-fashioned way and were not necessarily very cultured in other areas, whereas he was open-minded and modern. And the Prime Minister, who loved Maqam, even if he was not entirely convinced, felt obliged (to choose him) because he best represented Iraq in an Arab country or in a foreign context. That is how al-Qubanji was chosen.
He had already recorded albums in Berlin in 1926, 1927, and 1929. He also created maqams, or maqam structures, based on certain local melodies. Furthermore, he did not sing with the traditional ensemble that usually accompanies Iraqi maqam, namely the tchalghi baghdadi, comprising santur, djose and two types of percussion. Instead, he sang with the modern ensemble, al-takht al-Baghdadi, comprising kanun and oud.
At that point, a decision had to be made. Should traditional artists be sent to Cairo, accompanied by a takht? That was not possible. Furthermore, al-Qubanji had never sung accompanied by the tchalghi. In addition, typical tchalghi instruments such as the santur were known to be sensitive to heat and to require metal strings. The (Iraqi) government therefore decided to send al-Qubanji to Cairo, accompanied – for the first time in Iraq’s history – by a (hybrid) ensemble made up of instruments from two ensembles, the tchalghi and the takht. So this is how Iraq was represented (at the Cairo Congress).
Now, on the Egyptian organisers’ side, the idea was, on the one hand, to try to bring people together, to do something unified (in terms of Arabic music). It should be noted, however, that they probably did not grasp the (artistic) diversity that existed in the different Arab countries, that there were different (musical) forms and styles…
On the other hand, there was also criticism of oral tradition. Because people kept saying “it’s always oral music, [but] we still need to establish rules for music, modes, maqams, rhythms and forms.” It’s not possible for everyone to do it their own way. It was also a question, for them, of introducing modernity, namely musical notation.
The German school, which was very well known at the time, had been invited, along with Kurt Sachs and Erich von Hornbostel, as well as others who were interested in non-European music. The organisers also invited figures such as Alois Haba from the Czech Republic, Bela Bartók from Hungary, and others. Similarly, Egyptians with dual profiles, both musicians and music theorists, were invited.
As for the other Arab countries, they called on artists and musicians, but these were not represented at all in the various committees set up to discuss the issues on the agenda. For example, there was a commission on modes, rhythms and forms; a commission on scales dedicated exclusively to 24 quarter tones, attempting to establish them and use them on pianos. Two Egyptians were trying to create quarter-tone pianos (a piano had even been brought in from Czechoslovakia).
As for the musical instruments committee, it was not interested in the instruments played by the musicians from the invited Arab countries, but only in Egyptian instruments. Furthermore, the music education committee focused primarily on music education in schools and institutes, after establishing common rules for teaching Arabic music.
Finally, we must mention the recording committee. There was a rumour circulating at the time that many people thought it might not be worth recording (the artists invited to the Congress). But curiously, this same commission decided to record, the more traditional repertoires in particular, unlike other commissions, which were obsessed with modernity and change. The work of these commissions required two weeks of preparation and discussion, followed by a five- to seven-day professional meeting.
But Mohammed al-Qubanji (almost) never participated (in these committees)… Only once was he asked for his opinion on (musical) forms, because everything depended on whether or not they resembled what was being done in Egypt. And when they were not the same, the response was that they would try to analyse them to see what they meant. Only once was he asked about existing musical forms in Egypt, to find out if they also existed in Iraq. When you look through the list of forms studied, you notice that they have been catalogued in a somewhat strange way. And al-Qubanji validated some of them in a rather vague manner.
I myself conducted many interviews with Mohamed al-Qubanji. Unfortunately, I do not know where they are in my sound archives. I asked him questions about his presence in Egypt. He brilliantly replied that his goal was not only to record Iraqi music with two ensembles (takht and tchalghi), but also to reach out to Egyptians, because “it is important for the Arab world to know Egypt, but Egypt must also know the Arab world”.
So, he chose poems written by Iraqi poets from among all the songs he sang. Ahmed Shawqi asked him, “What is this poem?” He replied, “But it’s by our great poet, al-Habboubi [2]. And why is it that everyone here (invited to Cairo) knows the great Egyptian poets, but you don’t know the great Iraqi poets?”
Subsequently, in parallel with the work of the Congress, a concert was organised at the Opera House (in Cairo). I cannot recall which of the artists suggested composing a song to thank the King (Fouad I). A well-known Iraqi poet, al-Russafi[3] , was then asked if he could write a poem. He explained that it was not his role to write praise for a king and therefore declined the offer.
But another author finally wrote it, and al-Qubanji’s ensemble was able to perform it. The King was very pleased. It seems that al-Qubanji and others were probably invited to the Royal Palace to thank him. Some said that the King offered him money, others said that al-Qubanji did not necessarily accept it…
So, the recordings (of the Cairo Congress) were made by the Gramophone Company, and some of the discs were broken en route (between Alexandria and London). But it is important to note that in the Congress’s discussions and writings on modes and forms, the term Maqam Iraqi does not appear once.
Because at that time – which I find incredible and scandalous – there was confusion between maqam, which means mode, and Maqam Iraqi, which refers to a genre, a repertoire, a musical form. And that is not possible. And today, when you consult the list of sound recordings from the Congress, Maqam Iraqi is not mentioned anywhere. When it comes to a song, you do find the term pasta. But when it comes to Maqam Iraqi, only the first three words of the poem are indicated.
This is a fundamental error because the poem can be sung with another maqam. Poems are not fixed. It is possible to interpret an Iraqi Maqam with several poems, and the reverse is also true. But since all this was ignored, the Iraqi Maqam did not exist for the Commission on Forms (…).
FG: Going back, from memory, to one of your articles on the Iraqi Maqam, it was mentioned that when al-Qubanji was chosen in Iraq to represent his country in Cairo, he adapted the Iraqi maqam song for Egyptian ears, because he said “I’m going to Egypt, so I need to present them with something they can appreciate in terms of poetry and singing style”. Can you tell us more about this?
SH: Actually, that’s not entirely accurate, in that he didn’t change the style of Iraqi maqam singing. His aim was to choose an Iraqi text to appeal to Egyptians, but after several meetings and concerts, he tried to sing things that didn’t exist in Iraqi Maqam, in order to appeal to Egyptians, but the style and poetry remained entirely Iraqi. No, that’s not quite right. I know that even in that text, sometimes there are elements that are not quite right.
No, he said: “I’m going to go there to address Egyptians who don’t know our music, precisely by singing this music in his own way”. That is to say, in a way that was sometimes considered by the more traditionalists in Iraq as developing his own style, sometimes adding melodies or other elements.
In addition, it is important to note – even if this is not apparent in the recordings of the Congress – that the Iraqi Maqam was a social song, always performed in homes or cafés and could last for several hours. This means that after performing the Iraqi Maqam, something else is sung, such as a (lighter) song, so that the Maqam singer can rest. Thus, there are other forms that can be integrated as in a suite, adaptable according to the circumstances. If one is invited to a wedding or participates in a religious ceremony, then the poems sung, the maqam, are not the same.
And none of these explanations are known or mentioned in the Cairo documents, which only consider the musical piece, separate from the relational dimension. There is also, of course, the aspect of instrumental improvisation, which normally occurs in concerts in Iraq. Sometimes a musician improvises alone, but obviously in relation to the singer’s style and melodies.
FG: In the same vein, in the 1930s and 1940s, there were different tchalgi baghdadi ensembles active in Baghdad. Was there perhaps a kind of rivalry between them?
SH: Indeed, as I mentioned at the beginning, there was the more traditional school, with the greatest singer of the time, but he had lost his voice and was no longer representative, if you like. His name was (Rashid) al-Qundarji.
But Mohamed al-Qubanji represents a new school because he comes from a different world, he has a vast general knowledge, he has a mastery of language, he is also a poet, with a poetic culture to boot. He is also more representative. He has also left his personal mark on the interpretation of maqams. To the point of creating new Iraqi Maqams, based on melodies from the south of the country, which he integrates into the structure and interprets as a Maqam.
FG: So perhaps we can return to the recordings of the Cairo Congress in Iraq, because if I understand correctly, a copy was given or offered to Prime Minister Nuri Saïd?
SH: No, no.
FG: So how did the recordings of the Congress end up in Iraq…?
SH: As far as I know, someone told Nuri Saïd that they had heard the Iraqi Maqam on the BBC. It was only after… This story about the recordings is very complex. I would like to go back there to find out why the management of the recordings took so long and why the recordings were only given to the representatives of the commissions.
I read that (the guests at the Cairo Congress) were told, “if you want the recordings, you can buy them later.” Al-Qubanji, for example, wasn’t interested in that at all because he sang and had already recorded other albums. He had no reason to want to buy them.
Did Nuri Saïd finally get them? I don’t know. It’s not written anywhere. What I do know is that it was in the 1950s that Iraqi radio began to introduce these Maqams on the airwaves, on the station that had been created in 1936.
FG: You yourself had experience with the Iraqi radio station in the 1970s (creating the Centre of Traditional Music). Can you tell us about it?
SH: Yes, I set up a Centre of Traditional Music…, but I was looking for a place to work. But as I wanted to do fieldwork, I also needed equipment. At the time, it was Nagra. But I needed somewhere to store the sound recordings. In short, I needed help.
So I went to the Ministry of Culture at the time, to the Music Department, where a lady who now lives in London worked. It was Ma’an al-Bakri, who was Director General of Music. I said to her, “Can’t you help me?” She said, “No, because we don’t have any money at the Ministry.” This was at a time when oil had not yet been nationalised…
“The best place (she said) to find the necessary equipment, such as a Nagra, is the radio station. And they also have cars, because they do their own fieldwork. So, go there.” I spoke to the Director General (of the radio station). He said, “Yes, of course, here you are, we’ll give you [what you need] right away” and they gave me an office (…).
I needed drawers to work on the documentation and prepare everything. And they helped me there, at the radio station. Before creating the Centre, because I taught at the university (at the time, there was no music department), so I taught the philosophy of art and what is called التذوق الموسيقي, musical appreciation.
The students enrolled at the university’s Academy of Fine Arts came from all regions of Iraq, from villages and cities alike. So I said to them, “Listen, can you do a project on the music of your region or city, documenting the genres, forms and performers?” At first, they didn’t really believe in this kind of initiative, because the country was at a point of opening up to modernity (with a tendency to denigrate anything traditional).
But anyway, they carried out their research and came back with some incredible reports. In the end, they were very interested, and so was I. From there, my first step was to send questionnaires to all regions of the country and major cities, asking questions about types of music, singers, instruments,…
When we got the answers, we created this traditional music centre with the help of radio and television, and their logistical support. They were truly extraordinary. We went to the north, for example. There, I accumulated a lot of documents and recordings – with the names of the different villages and towns (I would now need time and help to find them and read them again).
I was the first to visit the Yezidis in their region and attend various Christian services in different towns. We also had a photographer with us who documented everything. We had photos, recordings… But then… Perhaps you know that the centre was bombed by the “nice Americans”. Everything burned down and went up in smoke. Very little remains, some tapes (not in very good condition) and I still have a few copies of some things here, but that’s all. (To learn more about this center’s experience, see Scheherazade’s article below: Failure to assist a treasure in danger)
AR: I would like to know more about the combination of tchalghi and takht. Does that mean that a santur and a qanun are used simultaneously, as well as a djose with a violin?
SH: (Showing a photo) So you have the singer in the middle, and to his left are the santur and the jose; to his right are the oud and the kanun. Then there are the two (types of) percussion instruments, because the duff and… existed in both ensembles (tchalghi and takht) separately.
AR: And they made recordings (with this mixed ensemble)…?
SH: Yes, yes… Well, apparently al-Qubanji was very embarrassed at first because he had never sung accompanied by the santur, and I don’t know how they worked together, but they recorded well together.
FG: It was the first time, but were there any subsequent experiments combining these two ensembles?
SH: It was the first time, but afterwards, obviously, with this kind of openness, the ensembles began to grow, and unfortunately, today they have grown so much that you find cellos, double basses, etc.
FG: But in today’s large ensembles, we still find the oud, santur, qanun, etc.?
SH: Yes, yes.
MS: But combining the santur and qanun is a bit difficult, isn’t it?
SH: That’s very difficult. I can’t technically answer that question. But I can illustrate it with an experience. One day, I wrote to Amir al-Saffar [4] after he sent me a recording made in New York with Hamid al-Saadi [5] and a large orchestra. It included both instruments (santur and qanun), but there were many others.
I said to him: “It bothers me – perhaps because of the sound – because some instruments are louder than others and that detracts a little from the singing. Previously, the tchalghi was exclusively dedicated to the Iraqi maqam, and he knew when to intervene because he knew the repertoire by heart. There were times when he accompanied the singer discreetly and times when he came to the fore, when the singer paused between one piece and another.
But I cannot assess the current situation regarding other Iraqi Maqam ensembles; one would have to listen carefully to their recordings to see how they operate. It should also be noted that the construction of the santur has undergone changes, including in the use of strings.
AR: I also think there may be variations in tuning?
SH: Indeed, there is that problem, but even back then, what was highlighted was the sensitivity of the santur to air, heat, etc., and it had to be constantly checked. And al-Qubanji didn’t like that because he found the kanun to be more…
AR: I find the comparison with Egypt that you mentioned very interesting. And the organisers (of the Congress) regularly asked whether this or that scale, form,…, existing in Egypt, could be found in another country. Was this because the Congress participants were absolutely convinced that Egypt was the benchmark, or because the musicologists (present) only knew Egypt?
I think it’s both. Egypt became central because they knew it, due to its geographical position and the sound recordings made there (from 1904 onwards). And also because Egypt was the first country (in the region) to open up to Europe. And the idea of a congress (of Arabic music) had as its underlying theme openness to modernity. Egypt was the first (Arab) country to build an opera house after the inauguration of the Suez Canal under Napoleon III. There was already an opera house (in Cairo) in the 19th century !
[1] The proceedings of the conference were edited and published in 1992 as Musique Arabe: Le Congrès du Caire de 1932, Cairo: CEDEJ
[2] Muhammad Sa’id al-Habboubi (1849–1915), Iraqi poet, faqīh, and merchant, born in Najaf.
[3] Ma’ruf al-Rusafi (1875-1945), Iraqi poet, educationist and literary scholar born in Baghdad. He is regarded as a humanist and one of the three neo-classical poets of Iraq alongside al-Jawahiri and al-Zahawi.
[4] Composer, trumpeter, santur player, vocalist, and bandleader, Amir al-Saffar (b. Chicago, 1977) has been described in the New York Times as “the celebrated trumpeter and composer who explores vital connections between jazz and Arabic music.”https://www.amirelsaffar.com
[5] Hamid al-Saadi (b. 1958) is the only living singer who has mastered the entire Iraqi Maqam repertoire.Performing from the legendary Yusuf Omar (1918-1987), he pronounced al-Saadi as his successor, while al-Qubanji (1901- 1989), who taught Omar, considered al-Saadi to be the “ideal link to pass on the maqam to future generations”. https://hamidalsaadi.bandcamp.com/album/maqam-al-iraq
FIND OUT MORE
Iraqi documentary about Muhammad Al-Qubbanchi, Baghdad, 1980
The conference proceedings Musique Arabe: Le Congrès du Caire de 1932, Cairo: CEDEJ, Cairo, 1992.